Susan Thompson Interview

PROJECT TITLE: Women at the University of Winnipeg during Second-Wave Feminism

NARRATOR: Susan Thompson

INTERVIEWER: Alyson Shane

DATE OF RECORDING: February 4th, 2013

PLACE OF RECORDING: Susan Thompson’s Home

SESSION: 1 of 1

LENGTH OF SESSION: 1:15:00

TOTAL INTERVIEW LENGTH: 1:15:00

AUDIO QUALITY: Very good.

FILE NAME: UWW SW Alyson Shane THOMPSON Susan 20130204.mp3

TRANSCRIBER: Alyson Shane

DATE TRANSCRIPTION COMPLETED: February 27th, 2013

AUDIT EDITOR:

DATE AUDIT EDIT COMPLETED:

DATE REVIEWED BY NARRATOR:

FINAL CORRECTIONS (Date, Editor):

[0:00] Alyson Shane: It is February 4th, 2013, my name is Alyson Shane and I am interviewing former mayor Susan Thompson about her experiences at University of Winnipeg during second-wave feminism. Alright... let’s get started. I think that’s a bit better [laughter].

[0:20] Alyson Shane: So Susan, tell me about yourself.

[0:21] Susan Thompson: Where would you like me to begin?

[0:22] Alyson Shane: At the beginning; at the start.

[0:23] Susan Thompson: At the beginning. Okay, we don’t have two centuries, so from a personal point of view, born and raised in St. James, April 12, 1947 so I am at the very beginning of the baby boomers which I think is important in your research, you know, just in terms of trying to determine which generation I am in.

[0:58] So, I’m one of four children, youngest of four children and grew up in a family that owned Birt Saddlery, so that was a store on Main St. in downtown Winnipeg. We sold Western wear, we sold tack and harness and saddles and cowboy boots and luggage and fine leather goods. So I very much grew up in a family that was very entrepreneurial and I had a strong business sense, but I also grew up in a family that was -you were expected to volunteer and give back to the community so we were very involved with the community whether it was in the church or the community club or the Y[MCA]. Anything like that.

[1:47] Went through my schooling in St. James from Linwood School all the way to high school at St. James Collegiate where in my final year at the collegiate where in my final year of my St. James Collegiate grade twelve I thought I had my priorities right which were did I have a date on Saturday night and my wardrobe and my hair and my makeup and of course that resulted in me failing a few subjects in grade twelve and leaving high school without my diploma. But had a great graduation dinner and dance I must say.

[2:30] Anyway, fast-forward what was I going to do after my dismal failure at St. James collegiate a friend of mine was working at the University of Winnipeg had a job opening, so I applied and was very grateful to get the job at the University of Winnipeg library and worked for a year and which was [pause] honestly just the greatest because everybody else was so busy studying, and term papers and exams and I was the circulation clerk at the library at the University of Winnipeg and I got to go out on dates, I had the greatest social life, no exams, no term papers -absolutely nothing and got pain 85$ a week and thought I was in heaven.

[3:31] But after a year of realizing that I could not afford me on 85$ a week between the -the stark realization that one does need to have a decent-paying job and the fact that i did not have a complete high school. The teachers at the Collegiate, at the University of Winnipeg -and this is really my first influence at the university was the library and the opportunity I was given to work there and then the next was the teachers at the Collegiate who just took me under their wing and said “well, you’ve got to get your high school” and arrangements were made with Mr. Wright who was the librarian, that I could go and pick up my high school subjects as well as work in the library because I came from a family that expressed to me, particularly my father, that if I was stupid enough to fail subjects then they weren’t going to pay for me to pick them up at the University of Winnipeg Collegiate and in those days classes were more expensive than the university ones. So I had to find a way to pick up my high school and pay for it and work and the University of Winnipeg was incredible in it’s encouragement and I’d say that it became obvious right at the very beginning that the University of Winnipeg was highly dedicated to its students and there was such a personal touch involved there, so. That there then was the beginning of my time at the University of Winnipeg.

[5:26] Alyson Shane: Can you tell me about a typical day on campus for you?

[5:33] Susan Thompson: A typical day on campus for me, when I was in the Collegiate, was [pause] truly you had to pinch yourself because it was 1967 and that was Canada’s Centennial, Expo 67 was happening in Montreal, the Pan-American Games were happening in Winnipeg for the first time. It was very heavy times and at the Collegiate we were this very special country of students that, were blessed to have such excellent teachers.

[6:18] So a typical day for me to begin with was to do my Collegiate classes. I believe that I usually started with math which was with Mrs. Mills and anybody that’s attended the University of Winnipeg Collegiate, Mrs. Mills has to have gone down in history as being the best and she-she was excellent. My grade twelve math teacher at St. James Collegiate, after my Christmas exam whereby I got the mark of eleven, expressed to me that I should just basically go and take the secretarial course. And, my father asked me what I thought I did to get a mark of eleven and I said I thought I’d spelled my name right. So anyway, my grade twelve math teacher told me that I would never pass grade twelve math, never! And go take the secretarial course.

[7:18] When Mrs. Mills interviewed me before I took her class and heard that comment she expressed to me that I would get at least seventy in grade twelve math and I was astounded because I didn’t quite understand how I would go from a mark of eleven to a mark of seventy and she, very -she was a very petite woman- and she just looked at you and said “that’s because you will come to my after four o’clock classes on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays until you do get a mark of seventy”.

[7:58] And needless to say the Christmas exam happened and guess what -mark of seventy-one! [laughter] Anyway, so it was attending the classes and then it was going to library and working the afternoon or the night shift or whatever the librarian had worked out for me, and of course in-between it was the, you know the activities were whether or not it was the sports games at the university. In those days the student body -I mean, we had dances, there was student council, the representatives were called Senior Stick and Lady Stick and it was just, such an interaction between the students. You really always either met your Saturday night date in Tony’s Canteen, the library, or the cafeteria. So in between studies and dating and just enjoying the university. That was just a typical day and that just continues all the way through my university years.

[9:14] Except in my second year I got engaged and then I was married at the beginning of my third year so by the beginning of my third year I was married, so I became a married student. And my sociology professor Dr. Cecil Pererra when I walked into the beginning of the third year -so I took political science and sociology as double-majors and he welcomed the whole class and said “and” -he didn’t pronounce my name ‘Thompson’, it was T-H-O-M he said “Mrs. Thompson [soft t] is a perfect sociological example because she’s now married and that’s why women come to university, is to find a husband. And she has found someone in her same socio-economic [pause] level and I think somewhere in the textbooks it said that you would probably marry someone within a ten-block radius and I married somebody within a six-block radius. So he opened up the beginning of my third year... I was his example of how this all works. Yay! [sarcastic]

[10:41] Alyson Shane: You mentioned that you got married in your second year-

[10:45] Susan Thompson: At the chapel at the university. And Janet Walker got married in the chapel as well.

[10:54] Alyson Shane: That’s very interesting [coughs] excuse me. How did you balance your schoolwork with your other responsibilities?

[11:04] Susan Thompson: Oh! Married, working, it was very hard it-it really was. You know, by the time I got into university it was very clear that being the beginning of the baby boomer generation that we we going to be women who got university degrees and were equal partners and were going to have careers, not just jobs, and I thought, you know “oh great, I’ll just get a university degree and everything and then for the first five years I’ll certainly contribute to our joint income but I certainly didn’t see myself as going on to a career. I was going to have a husband and 2.5 children and white picket fence and a station wagon just like it said in my sociology book -Dr. Pererra! But once I was in my third year and I was married -I don’t know what the epiphany was, but, very much I knew that I-I, that this was going to be a career of which I was going to be very proud of.

[12:20] Alyson Shane: How did you get to campus?

[12:22] Susan Thompson: How did I get to campus? You mean why did I decide on the U of W?

[12:26] Alyson Shane: No, I meant transportation.

[12:31] Susan Thompson: Oh! Well, first of all it was the bus, because the bus came directly from St. James to the University of Winnipeg. Then of course we got the famous carpool. And you’re looking at me like your generation -so one person had a car and we all pooled together and so that person would pick up three or four others and we carpooled our way to the University of Winnipeg. So it worked out just perfectly because, you know, as my parents said “you can have a car but you have to pay for it”. So that wasn’t in the works. So, I was in a carpool and we all lived, you know, quite close to one another so -I got picked up in the morning and dropped off in the evening, and there you go. [13:21] Alyson Shane: Who was your favorite professor?

[13:23] Susan Thompson: My favorite professor [pause] well, you know I can’t just say one. But the outstanding professors that I will always be very thankful to. Well, first of all Dr. Newton. He was the head of the theology department at the time and he was most encouraging that I go back and get my high school and my university -quite adamant. And Dr. Taylor at the time in Theology, because I worked in Bryce Hall where the library was -it’s not there any more, but that’s where the library was and up in the second floor was the Theology Department which were the beginnings of United College -United College and the University of Winnipeg. Then of course in high school Mrs. Mills, without a doubt the best Collegiate teacher anyone could wish for.

[14:38] Then in Political Science there was Dr. Rais Khan. Dr. Khan was [pause] an elegant man. And, you know, in our day the professors dressed in suits and, [clicks tongue] you know, and you were in awe of them. And I’ll always remember Dr. Khan... the seven-day war between I guess it would have been Israel and Egypt occurred and we were all very frightened. And Dr. Khan stood up and he said “now on the one hand here is what the Israeli position is” and you just sat there and and went [clicks tongue] “see! The Israelis are correct!” and he just had us in the palm of his hand, and then he said “and then on the other hand, this is what the Egyptians are thinking” and by the time he was finished you went “well they’re right!”. And then he stood there and he said “now, it’s up to you to decide”. And I thought that was one of the greatest gifts that anybody -whether he was a university professor or not- could give you because he provided a very intelligent presentation on both sides of the story and then left it up to you to decide where you were going to land, and at the same time taught you the skill of understanding that very often situations are not right or wrong, they’re -there is merit to both sides. What you have to do, then, is have the ability to make a decision as to what path you’re going to go on.

[16:41] And then I loved Dr. Veach, because Dr. Veach was also one of my political science professor and he gave me an A+ for my paper on the Spanish-American war. So I loved him. And then Dr. Harry Straub who had to be, yet again, one of the wonderful professors at the University of Winnipeg who always encouraged you to do your very best.

[17:12] Alyson Shane: Did you have any -[clears throat] who were your least favorite professors?

[17:14] Susan Thompson: I have no idea because I don’t remember them. [laughter] No seriously, I don’t remember them because I, well, I don’t remember his name but I was one of those bright-eyes and bushy-tailed students who actually thought a professor wanted to hear what I thought. And I’ll never forget this -it was political science and it was second year and I thought I wrote a brilliant paper. And I got a terrible mark and I remember saying something to one of my fellow students and they said “well it’s because you didn’t regurgitate his point of view” and I said “what? No no no aren’t we here because we’re supposed to be developing our intellect” and all this and they said “if you want a good mark you’re going to regurgitate what he wants”. So, valuable lesson in life: learn how to brownnose and learn to regurgitate what the professor wants. And guess what? I got a good mark!

[18:15] Alyson Shane: What sorts of social activities were there on campus?

[18:17] Susan Thompson: [excitedly] Oh, we were at the height of -first of all Canada’s national hockey team was based at the University of Winnipeg -are you kidding me? All those gorgeous hockey players and Ridell Hall cafeteria [emphasis] strewed! Oh, gorgeous! So of ours everyone became a hockey fan and those were the days of the Canada-Russia competitions, and the guys went to the 1968 Grenoble Olympics and all that. Anyway, it was unbelieveable. But anyway the Ridell Hall cafeteria had just been built and that’s where we had all of the dances. You know, Chad Allan and the Reflections played and that went on to become the Guess Who and Burton Cummings and oh, you know it was just -it was just - you will have no idea what Freshie Week means but Freshie Week was the first week of university and UofM and the university combined and there was a parade down the middle of Portage Avenue. And somehow, the fellows that -I was in first year and I don’t know if it was the guys in second year who parked a car on the roof of The Bay. You’ll have to go to the Alumni Council and ask Helen Cholakis to [pause] Chapman was the guy’s name [pause] anyway he was the City Manager of Brandon and he will have ti tell someone how they got a car up on the roof of the Bay.

[20:08] But you know that the time when the combination of the UofW and the UofM -I didn’t go to the UofM because it scared the daylights out of me. I took one look at the campus and went “I’m going to get lost out here”. And the UW my sister had gone to the UW and my brother had gone to the UW it was a place that was a liberal arts university. We were small, but we had an excellent reputation. And the classes were smaller and I could afford to get there. It’s true, I mean, the ability to afford was very important but it was the excellence of the teaching. And the traditions. You know, lots of important history.

[20:51] Alyson Shane: Were there any big events on campus aside from Freshie Week and the hockey games that you remember?

[20:54] Susan Thompson: Yeah the dances, and the elections. Well, you know, I suppose they were elections but as I said it was lady stick and senior stick and between working and going to school [pause] it wasn’t hard to get into social activities. Well, I mean part of our time and our social activity were the frat houses from the UM so if you got to date a guy from the UofM you got to go to all the parties. [pause] It appears I liked parties.

[laughter, both Alyson Shane & Susan Thompson]

[21:31] Susan Thompson: which I did. And then there was the gathering in Tony’s Canteen which I’m sorry to say was not part of the university anymore but in Wesley Hall there was a real incubator. You know, Lloyd Axworthy  and Tom Axworthy had their tables, and then I and my girlfriends had out table, Barry Shenkarow  who went on to own the Jets had his table. Nick Ternette who went became the all-time social activist in the City of Winnipeg. So, just imagine being in this canteen where, you know, you had the future Foreign Affairs Minister of Canada, a future mayor, and the owner of the Jets, and Nick, the social activist all within four or five tables of one another. And, I mean Lloyd’s brother Tom went on to become [Pierre] Trudeau's chief strategist and a brilliant, brilliant man. And I remember, I guess it was maybe around 1968 because it was Lloyd and Tom’s table, and sitting having coffee with Tom and about three of his friends... and the conversation was -I’m sure it was 1968- how and when were they going to get Lloyd elected as Prime Minister of Canada. [23:14] So stop and think about that. You know, I’m all of 20 years of age and I’m sitting at a table in our favourite canteen at the university and Lloyd’s brother Tom and, you know, really dedicated liberal guys are sitting there, strategizing about how and when Lloyd is going to become Prime Minister. And I jus, I just sat there. And, you know, years later as Lloyd moved up in his political success and became Minister of Foreign Affairs I never, ever forgot that. Interesting.

[23:51] Alyson Shane: You were just kind of talking about the people that, you know, had all those tables together. Can you tell me a little bit more about your close-knit circle of friends? The people you saw every day?

[24:02] Susan Thompson: My close-knit circle of friends -obviously my girlfriends, some were ones I had grown up with in St James and then some were girls i had met at university and most of us worked in the library. so you know they came from all over Manitoba. And we were all really smart. They were, they were really really bright girls. and then because I work on the circulation desk, what that means is that I was the desk person where if you wanted to take a book out or bring a book back you had to see me. So I got to know -the university opened my world. I grew up in St James. it was a WASP [White Anglo-Saxon Protestant] community. I go to the University of Winnipeg and for the first time in my life I’m meeting kids from the West Indies, I’m meeting people -Jewish kids -I never knew any Jewish kids- and Italians - I mean, good heavens Joe Bova one of the leaders of the italian community here -Joe was there, Ray McFeetors who McFeetors hall the residence was names after. Ray was there during my time and went on of course to be head of great west life and Bob Kozminski of Keystone Ford I mean Bob was there then. Cal Botterill whose daughter Jennifer is the olympian hockey player and then of course Canada’s national hockey team.

[25:56] Don’t kid yourself that I wasn’t in the circle and I, you know, I mean my greatest goal was to become a hockey coach because I thought “what an ideal job for a woman”. I mean you get to pat the bums of all those hockey players and say “c’mon go out there and score some goals!” and everything. But I remember talking to Jackie Mcleod was the coach of Canada’s national hockey team and father Bauer I guess was the manager -I don’t know. Don’t ask me how I got into a conversation with them and I said “you know I’d really like to be a hockey coach” and the two of them just looked at me and said “women cannot become hockey coaches”.

[26:36] Honestly Alyson, I had to tell you. At one time I wanted to become a pilot. Well, women couldn’t become pilots. And then I wanted to become a hockey coach and well women couldn’t become hockey coaches. And then I wanted to be a race car driver, well you couldn’t do that either. So there you go.

[26:57] Alyson Shane: You said that you got married in your third year [ST: I did] can you tell me a little bit more about your relationship with your future husband and anyone else you might have dated while you were at the university?

[27:07] Susan Thompson: Well, all I can tell you is that I was very fortunate because I really had a lot of great boyfriends, and they were all excellent. But by the second year -well, maybe by the second year my future husband was eyeing me and so we started dating. And it was Christmas of my second year that I got engaged, and I think he had originally asked me to marry him in September of that year in the front lawn of the University of Winnipeg and I declined. And he continued to pursue me and swept me off my feet, so there we go. It was all- he was a few years older than me and had just graduated with a Masters Degree and had just started his career being a lawyer. We were every lucky to have met one another.

[28:30] Alyson Shane: What do you feel was the most important book or idea that you studied while you were at the university?

[28:34] Susan Thompson: The most -I would have to say, idea. Because, you know I’m sure it hasn’t changed, you know you’re given all these books to read and you know you never know how you’re going to -the most important idea, thing I learned is: in first year they’re just trying to weed you out. [Laughs] I mean here you are all this idea all “ooh I’m going to go to university” and I was, I was thrilled to be going to university and people were just dropping off like flies because some of the work and assignments and everything and finally someone just said “first year they’re trying to weed you out it’s in second and third year that you begin to, to really be...” [pause] the most important idea was, is that the clarification?

[29:26] Alyson Shane: Well did you feel like there was a specific topic that you studied that you felt really influenced you, or a book that you studied-

[29:44] Susan Thompson: No, no, no, there wasn’t ever a book that i recall beyond being annoyed at my sociology professor spouting his sociological theories. But the most important thing was definitely political science whereby the whole world opened up to me and political systems and one of most important things in the big picture that university taught me was how to think strategically, how to write that I could organize my thoughts and I could deliver my message and that I wasn’t going anywhere without a university degree. but it was the ability to exercise my thinking but strategically think, and communicate it accordingly.

[30:50] Alyson Shane: What sort of literature or support existed on campus at the time for women’s civil rights, or their sexuality?

[31:08] Susan Thompson: [pause, clicks tongue] Let me... hear you you mean by that.

[31:10] Alyson Shane: What I mean is, where there sexual consultation services, were there condoms being issued was there somewhere you could go if you sexually assaulted?

[Susan begins to laugh]

[31:23] No, oh no, you’re thinking a number of generations ahead but there was the advent of the birth control pill. There was, to my knowledge, there was absolutely none of the services, if you want to call them that. But clearly it was the advent of the birth control pill and trust me that was, that was huge in terms of empowerment for women. That you didn’t have to be terrified your entire time that you were going to get pregnant and that you could [emphasis] plan your life and, you know, whether all of us really understood the importance of the birth control pull, obviously that evolved but from the get go that was just got godsend especially once I was married. Holy mackerel, you could plan life and though I suppose you could with condoms but you know in the day and age today it’s more about sexually transmitted diseases as opposed to -well I suppose it’s all about birth control, too. but for the birth control pill was huge for family planning and we were still the generation of the Kennedy's and we were still a pretty, well I guess we were on the cusp of a lot of stuff it wasn’t until I had started working in the early 70’s that the real feminist movement occurred and boy I was ready for it. It’s true!

[33:11] Alyson Shane: So there wasn’t anything on campus, say if you were sexually assaulted or contracted an STD -

[33:15] Susan Thompson: No. Well, there may have been, but... no.

[33:22] Alyson Shane: Was the Birth Control Handbook distributed on campus?

[33:25] Susan Thompson: Not that I know of. No, that was something your family doctor gave you.

[33:30] Alyson Shane: What sort of rules of conduct were in place on campus at the time with regards to how men treated women and vice-versa, how they spoke to each other?

[33:43] Susan Thompson: I don’t know of any clearly defined rules, per se, but I do know that it was still very much that men were expected to be gentlemen and women were expected to be women and it was also the beginning of the whole hippie, you know, the drugs and that whole sort of stuff which, you know, was disgusting. I did! You know, you saw kids start into the whole drug scene and get wasted and destroy their brains and it was very sad to see. For what? I mean it was the time of the whole LSD and alcohol was bad enough but to see these kids destroy their lives... [34:29] Alyson Shane: So you didn’t partake in the whole ‘sex drugs and rock ‘n roll lifestyle’?

[34:34] Susan Thompson: No. No, I wasn’t interested. Really, I I actually was terrified of it all. I thought, you know, I was blessed with a good brain and maturity and I came from a family whereby we owned a business. If that business wasn’t successful 20 people were out of jobs, so you know were were taught responsibility really early and there’s nothing attractive about someone barfing into a toilet. You know, being high and making a fool of themselves. No, not interested.

[35:22] Alyson Shane: What were some of the issues women faced on campus?

[35:26] Susan Thompson: I don’t know so much that we faced issues, again, there was clearly an evolution going on but we were transitioning from the traditional role of a woman to one where we would have to have a career and have family planning. But, no, the focus was more what were you going to do to get a job and what was your career going to be.

[36:04] Alyson Shane: Was there any gay rights activism on campus, and if so how did you feel about it if there was? [36:12] Susan Thompson: No, not that I know of. Nope.

[36:18] Alyson Shane: Were there any boycotts that were supported on campus?

[36:21] Susan Thompson: Oh there must have been. With Lloyd there? [laughs] Well, I don’t... [pause] well isn’t that interesting. Not that I can re- there must have been! I mean that’s what universities do but I can’t recall any, sorry.

[36:41] Alyson Shane: I was just asking because I was going through the UWSA book and there’s a part where they mention Beaver Foods? Was that while you were on campus or was that after? [36:50] Susan Thompson: No. [36:52] Alyson Shane: Aah.

[36:52] Susan Thompson: I was there for ‘66 and ’67, that was ’71.

[36:56] Alyson Shane: With that in mind, speaking of Beaver Foods, what sort of food options did you have on campus?

[37:03] Susan Thompson: Well, when the cafeteria opened, the Riddell Cafeteria Hall opened, the majority of the students went there. but that’s only because - Tony’s Canteen which was in Wesley Hall was for the Collegiate and if you went to the collegiate you certainly weren’t going anywhere else because because that was run by Tony Kozerya and his wife, K-o-z-e-r-y-a I think it is. But we used to call his wife Mrs. Tony and then Tony. And, you know, it was just a canteen but oh my goodness me that was where the food was and it was sensational and you know we simply never ever moved off of Tony’s canteen all the way through university. I’m serious! It was hilarious.

[37:57] [Makes a face, pretending to be a faculty member] “Don’t you know this is for the collegiate kids?”

[37:58] [Raises eyebrows innocently, pretending to be a student] “Yes, we do, thank you. We’re staying here”

[37:59] Alyson Shane: Did you ever vote in the UWSA elections?

[38:05] Susan Thompson: Well we didn’t have the UWSA elections, there was Senior Stick and Lady Stick so there was student council. Yes, absolutely.

[38:07] Alyson Shane: Do you remember who you voted for?

[38:19] Susan Thompson: Absolutely, it was for Bart Sacarill for the Senior Stick and Leslie Gilbert was the Lady Stick.

[38:26] Alyson Shane: And why did you vote for them?

[38:29] Susan Thompson: Well first of all Leslie was really a committed to the university and she was an honest person she was a hard worker, and I cant remember any specific issues but I voted for the two people that I thought wold dedicate their time and had good values. Bart was the same way.

[39:01] Alyson Shane: Were there any conflicts about raising tuition?

[39:05] Susan Thompson: Oh I think always! Isn’t there always? Isn’t there always -I mean you never have enough money for tuition. Oh, I’m sure. Especially since I had to pay for my university, I must have. I mean there would always be the oh “how is anybody going to afford it?” but I don’t remember there being anything.

[39:37] Alyson Shane: Were there any rallies, or anything?

[39:39] Susan Thompson: Obviously I’ve either forgotten or else -you know it was a great time, it was very positive. We were the era of children whose parents had come back from war. Everyone was just there to make it work, and we always felt very very fortunate to have the opportunity not that we didn’t have to work for it. Anyway, sorry?

[40:09] Alyson Shane: Were there any popular columns in the school paper?

[40:19] Susan Thompson: Well, the Uniter, I would probably have to say -popular is an interesting word. Prolific would have been Nick Ternette, he would have been challenging everything.

[40:34] Alyson Shane: Do you remember the name of his column?

[40:35] Susan Thompson: Absolutely not. But [pause] See, you know when you ask about student activities because there was the collegiate there was the drama club and all that kind of stuff. The chemistry club which [whispers sarcastically] I didn’t quite belong to either of them.

[41:03] Alyson Shane: Were there any exceptional guest speakers on campus?

[Susan pauses, thinking]

[41:12] Susan Thompson: No. Maybe, not that I can recall [laughs]. I led a very narrow life.

[41:25] Alyson Shane: [Laughs] That’s okay. How do you feel Quebec’s Quiet Revolution affected the campus?

[41:32] Susan Thompson: What do you mean ‘Quebec’s Quiet Revolution’?

[41:34] Alyson Shane: The Quiet Revolution is the term used for the feminist revolution that started at McGill in the late 60’s and early 70’s and sort of spilled outwards into the rest of the country. Do you feel like that affected the campus at all?

[41:51] Susan Thompson: The feminist revolution that affected me was not on campus it was when I graduated from university and started my career at Eaton’s. and that was the feminist campaign why not? and i don’t know if that was Betty Freidman and Glorian Steinman -I don’t know but it was very prolific within my early 70’s at Eatons and the posters were the why not posters and the one I had up in my office showed a board room table and there were nothing but men around it and the poster said “why are there not women around this table?” and I had just received a promotion and I was the western regional buyer for ladies shoes for Eatons. But there were those of us who were buyers but the next level was to department manager and there were fifty-four department managers. One of them was a woman. That was my next step up. One of them was a woman. Above that was what was called group sales and merchandise manager. There were eight of them, one of them was a woman.

[43:28] So here are all of us baby boomers graduating from university coming up, we start as supervisors we become buyers and then we look up to the next level. so i took my poster that I had in my office and I took it to my group sales and merchandise manager and I put a note on it and I said “why are there not more women around the table and why is there only one out of fifty-four as a woman in department head?” and all that. And the next day I walked in and the poster was sitting on my desk and in those days I was married and my name was Mrs. Harvey and there was a note that said “Mrs. Harvey can you grow a mustache?” and that was the day that I became a feminist. I had always believed in the movement, had always seen the inequality but that was the day in my career that I dedicated to opportunities for women, making sure that everything i could ever do I would do to open doors for women and I was going to be a woman who got opportunities. and I was horrified and it just made me go “oh so there is no opportunity for me. i can’t grow a mustache.” and I just about dropped, and then shortly thereafter I was given a promotion and went out to Calgary and each step of the way I was generally the only woman at the management or senior executive level. So I was on that cusp of always only being the only woman. But I insisted that in every position I was after that, that women had to be given opportunity because of that attitude. It was a silly quippy answer but it told me.

[45:54] When I was hired at Eaton’s I couldn’t understand why after a couple of years I wasn’t getting the promotions that everybody I had started with were, I finally went up to personnel and said why am I not getting promotions and they said your group sales and merchandise manager has blocked your promotions -they had that much power in those days. And I said “well what do you mean?” and they said “well, there have been all kinds of requests for you for a promotion but he’s blocked them”. And I went in to him and I said “you know I’m married my husband and I just bought a house you know we’ve got a mortgage blah blah blah why are you blocking promotions?” “Well because Mrs. Harvey you’re one of the best I’ve ever had”. So I said “so you want to keep me but you’re blocking opportunity for me” and he said yes. They were that powerful. And I said well you know what I’ve just accepted a promotion to the shoe department and I said you know why did you hire me in the first place and in those days i was body perfect and I had this long hair and he just looked at me and here I’m thinking it’s because he thought that I had a university degree and I was smart and he just looked at me and said “because you have the most beautiful hair I’ve ever seen”. And I just went “ooooooh dear me”, so from there I go to the ladies show department where I’m told to grow a mustache. And therein began my very feminist.. yeah.

[47:47] Alyson Shane: Just to jump back to when you were working in the library -

[47:53] Susan Thompson: Yes my ideal days at the University of Winnipeg!

[47:55] Alyson Shane: That’s fine. I just wanted to talk a bit more about when you were working on campus and stuff.

[48:00] Susan Thompson: Yes.

[48:01] Alyson Shane: What kind of clothes did you wear when were working and was it different from when you were a student?

[48:07] Susan Thompson: Okay so this is -I’m going to be put on Saturday Night Live for this one- so of course you have to understand its 1976 and its just the beginning of the jeans and the whole hippie thing but please understand that I grew up as the daughter of the owner of Birt Saddlery. I wore cowboy boots and jeans from the time I was three so of course in the 60’s who do I look do I look to for fashion? Jackie k=Kennedy. All the time I went to university everybody in my opinion was deteriorating down into jeans, scruffy hair -are you kidding I was the Jacqueline Kennedy! I was in suits, skirts -I spent a fortune on no- I was... [whistfully] peter pan collars, sweater sets. Nope. Nope, nope nope. I was beautifully dressed. I was corporately dressed. I was fashion. No there was definitely a circle of us that were beautiful girls, beautiful women, and fashion plates... and then hot pants came along. Oh shoot! what a stupid fashion statement. Do you know of a single set of good knees on a girl?

[49:35] Alyson Shane: [Laughing] No.

[49:36] Susan Thompson: No! Knees are not pretty! And then you get stuck in these stupid short skirts and ugly, ugly hot pants thank god that whole thing ended quickly but yeah, no I was, truly I was a fashion plate. I was, I was a clothes horse and I was -beautiful clothes, beautiful. Yup. Did my nails, everything. Hair, perfect. Nope.

[50:05] Alyson Shane: And that wasn’t because you felt you had to dress that way at all for university, that was just your personal preference?

[50:08] Susan Thompson: Nope, nope, it was just strictly because I loved fashion. I -you know, again, think about it, growing up in farmer’s clothes -really you know I mean I loved my dad but cowboy boots and jeans and plaid shirts! You know, I mean I had a raccoon hat and I had a fringe jacket [laughs] no absolutely not! By the time I got to high school -nope no, I don’t think I’ve worn a pair of jeans since I was ten. Oh, no no no. [laughs]

[51:02] Alyson Shane: Were you allowed to smoke at work?

[51:03] Susan Thompson: Yes! And my whole history of smoking was university it was the University of Winnipeg’s fault. In my family it was a very strict family, no smoking, no drinking, no swearing -trust me it was a traditional. My mother stayed at home my father -blah blah blah- anyway I get to university and by the time I got to university it got to Christmas exams and I had taken first year psychology and I just didn't bond with I don't know what my problem was but you could crack open my book and i thought no problem because the exam was multiple choice and I thought now what are the odds that i wouldn’t get at least 50 percent on this. Well I didn’t I think I got 23, anyway it was a disaster and I guess it was 2 days before the exam and you know I’d had the odd cigarette, but I guess it was about midnight and I had a pack of Craven M cigarettes which were menthol cigarettes and I started to smoke and all of a sudden there this BANG! BANG! on my door and I go and open it up and theres my father standing there in his pajamas, and he said “are you smoking?” and I said yes and he said so at university you have increased your intelligence by learning how to smoke which will kill you.

[53:05] Alyson Shane: And then you smoked at work.

[53:06] Susan Thompson: Of course, and all the way throughout university and the first two or three years of my career, and then I thought it was stinkiest thing and just quit.

[53:23] Alyson Shane: How do you feel the university treated women when you first started, so what kind of role did they have, what kind of responsibilities as opposed to what you see now?

[53:35] Susan Thompson: I think when I was in university it was absolutely the traditional role, you know though so many women were coming into it-we were clearly a population explosion- and clearly the numbers of women were dramatically different, but it was the traditional roles that you could get. I think it was the early days of recognizing that women would have careers but we were patronized. But I daresay everyone was patronized. Not that university professors would think they’re God but some of them do, and there was very much “I’m your professor” whether you were male or female you know really you were just students so I think everyone was just patronized and women were even more patronized and I think you know, yeah.

[54:42] Alyson Shane: What was the hiring policy for female staff did they look for anything specific when they interviewed you?

[54:47] Susan Thompson: No, no, the majority of the library were women and yeah I don’t know why I don’t know if the guys didn’t want the job-no really seriously! When I look back I don’t even remember a guy. Great place for women.

[55:15] Alyson Shane: While you were there did you see any-

[55:18] Susan Thompson: Can i just i just need to take a pause i mean in the fact of the fact that we were all women that we worked with at the university and I apologize if there was a guy there that I've forgotten and the fact that we were all women and the fact that Mr. Wright who was the librarian was so accommodating, particularly with myself to allow me to juggling my working hours to pick up my high school and do my university really spoke volumes about him, and i think thats important to say because if he hadn't allowed me I just wouldn't have been able to do it. Now your next question was about faculty and did I, lets just hear what you have to say

[56:36] Alyson Shane: I was just going to say, while you were at the university did any female staff members or faculty struggle for promotions?

[56:40] Susan Thompson: I’m sure they did. I don’t remember [pause] I don’t remember half of the female faculty. I don’t remember -Mrs. Mills at Thee Collegiate, but all of my professors were men. So whatever women were there I am sure had to struggle. I mean women struggled everywhere and the discrimination was ridiculous but I can only imagine - like when I was mayor Marsha Hannon was the president of the University of Winnipeg and well when I was mayor all three education institutions were headed by women, ___ U of M, Marsha was UW and ____ was Red River and that was absolute history in this city and I know each one of them struggled something fierce, particularly from the backlash from their own faculty and the attitude. So the faculty that would have been at the University of Winnipeg were the women in there would to have been horrendous I mentioned to you to interview Dianne McGifford who became the member of the Manitoba Legislature and the Minister of Post-Secondary Education. I know her time, which was after mine, for women to get tenure and proper advancement and opportunities -I think she and two other wound up suing the University of Winnipeg for lack of opportunity and discrimination as I understand it.

[58:53] Alyson Shane: Was there a time when you said or did or you witnessed something that by todays standards would be deems unacceptable by todays standards while you were on campus?

[59:03] Susan Thompson: Oh sure. The prof dating the students [laughs] Oh sure the affairs that were going on -there you go. Sure.

[59:18] Alyson Shane: Can you tell me a little more about those?

[59:20] Susan Thompson: No! [Laughs] but it went on. Oh yeah, yeah and I'm sure it still does but, oh yeah I remember one prof who wound up dating one of my girlfriends and I thought “oh this is going to be really interesting” but he was really good looking so I guess we forgave him. So there you go. Oh yeah, yeah you know, oh yeah it’s tempest in a teapot at a university.

[59:46] Alyson Shane: How do you feel the roles of the women working at the university have changed, if at all?

[59:52] Susan Thompson: Well, I think that there more of them, number one. I think that there is a much clearer understanding of employment policies and I think laws of governance. Oh iI think women, I think the structure is there and I think the policies are there, do I think the behavior has changed in terms of opportunities and less discrimination? Maybe, but is it still there absolutely but [pause] but, the women on faculty have more tools to fight the discrimination but if they're prepared if its still there absolutely. And the staff, I would say it was staff -meaning secretaries etcetera -are the unsung heroes because I do not think that they are paid appropriately or given the opportunities that they should be. I think they’re a bunch of wonderfully dedicated -as I think the faculty are- but no, the challenges are still there.

[1:01:43] Alyson Shane: What sort of impact do you think this has on the university, do you think it’s positive or negative in the long-term? [1:01:48] Susan Thompson: i think its life i think its society i think its going on everywhere I mean come on I was the founding president and CEO of the University of Winnipeg Foundation and I absolutely adhered to my commitment of giving opportunities to women. And in the fundraising world it just so happens that it is dominated by women and as I was able to build the staff and the numbers there came a point where I believe we were at about 15 staff and we were we had 1 man and the rest were women, and I actually had two board members come to me and present it as a problem. A problem that all these talented women were employed of the University of Winnipeg Foundation! I believe my response back was “that is an absolute chauvinist comment” and went on the attack, at which point both my board members explained -one explained he’d been working on that [laughs] and the other said “I am not!” and I went “your proper response here should be one of pride that you are not mouthing words of equal opportunity for women but that you actually have an entity within thee University of Winnipeg that actually demonstrated opportunities for women”. And I only hired the best person in the fundraising, world it is absolutely dominated by women and you should be proud of the fact that you have this entity that is populated by women and we should be held up as an example of excellence as opposed to ‘theres something wrong here’. Au contraire! Holy mackerel, and to see that kind of attitude still prevalent without any concept of the ignorance of the comment and that we were stellar in our opportunities for women. My finance person was a woman, my communications director was a woman, donors to-you know, but I always used to say to the guy you’re the luckiest person on earth because you’re surrounded by all these bright women and he was! And it was the shock of the governing board raising it as a concern and “do you think you're ever going to hire another man?” was the question and I said I will hire the best person and I always will. But to think at that point I must have been 60 years of age had a career for 45 years and I mean you've got to be joking. It’s still there as you know, in certain ways the bias and the discrimination is underground and other ways, poof, up it comes. Nope and then its all of the comments, you know, you’re demanding. Well if it was a man it was, you know, you’re trying to get the most out of your people, but for a woman you’re demanding, or you’re picky. For a guy it’d be you’ve got an attention to detail. I mean all of the cliches they’re still alive and well today. And the stats show it.

[1:06:28] Alyson Shane: So, last question. Do you feel like your experiences as a female student at the university have left a lasting impression on you, can you just elaborate a little bit more on what you’ve touched on?

[1:06:37] Susan Thompson: Yeah, I mean being a female student of the University of Winnipeg by the time I graduated drove home to me the importance of getting an education, having that degree and having had the exposure to all aspects of society different ethic groups different cultures, different ways of thinking. I mean I used to go into some classes and walk out thinking “oh dear me”. I mean it was such radical positions on stuff that I was uncomfortable with and yet I had to write a paper that reflected what this professor wanted. I’ll never forget I think I got a B+ or something and I took that paper and I could hardly wait to get to where I could burn it because I had simply regurgitated what he had wanted but it exposed me to the thinking and -and now as you look back and what I faced in each step of my career i mean you can appreciate how i felt on election night in 1992 when our city was 118 years of age and I became the first woman and here we are our city is 139 years old and I’m still the only woman to become mayor I mean-how old are you?

[1:08:25] Alyson Shane: I’m 25.

[1:08:26] Susan Thompson: I don’t know as a 25-year old you're sitting here talking to a 65-year old there’s 45 years difference I mean you’re looking at the one and only. I mean its crazy. You know I’m so pleased that now we have 6 premiers at our provincial government that are woman and I look at you and I go you’re 25. You could be Prime Minister! I mean do not-the fight is still huge! You’re just smarter than we were-no, I mean you are, and you should understand that you are and whereas my responsibility as a feminist and understood my fight. I took it very seriously to provide opportunities for all of you, but you have a fight too and when you look at it: who controls the wealth? Men. Who are the-go ahead and look at all those suits in parliament. I mean do something about it!

[1:10:00] Alyson Shane: Okay, that wraps up my interview with Susan Thompson. It lasted an hour and ten minutes, so that puts us at probably 6:30, I don’t have a clock in front of me but it’s approximately that, February 4th, 2013.